Increasing ABV in Jamil's Berliner Weisse?

[crashlann]

Im brewing Jamil's Berliner Weisse this weekend and was hoping for some input. I would like to increase the ABV to 5.5-6.0%. I am planning on doubling the Pilsener Extract, thinking this will fully attenuate and add little flavor change, body. Would cane sugar be a better option if my goal is solely ABV and not body? My main question is should I do a yeast starter. I am doubling the OG, the recipe calls for one vial. When I plug the numbers into Mr. Malty it sais a 1.2 liter starter. I dont want the yeast to over attenuate ahead of the Lacto, which I am adding Tuesday. I understand that increasing the ABV will affect the sourness, but Im thinking this wont be a big deal because I will be well below 1.080, which is mentioned on the Podcast as the point where Lacto stops really stops. Im probably brewing tomorrow because of time constraints, but my Lacto comes in on Tues. My understanding is adding the Lacto later tthan the yeast will decrease some of the souring, hopefully not a big deal. Lastly, should I do a Lacto starter? Any advice is appreciated, Thanks.

[crashlann]

Actually Im planning on pitching the Lacto first after listening to the podcast again, then follow with my yeast.

[brewinhard]

Berliner's are much tougher to make than most people think. You need to make a HUGE lacto starter if you actually want the beer to sour at ALL! I recommend starting off with a 1.75 qt starter with only a 1.025 OG, no aeration, and use an airlock. Lacto is a weak bacteria and hates oxygen and IBU's. Keep that at 95 deg for 7-10 days. Crash cool and decant and add another 2 qt of low grav starter wort, no oxygen and let it ferment out again for 5-7 days. Crash cool and pitch just the sediment into cooled wort (no aeration) at 95 deg. Let it ferment at that temp for 2-3 days before cooling to 75 and pitch one vial/pack of neutral ale yeast. I prefer WY German Ale. Let it ferment another 5-7 days. Keg and let age (not cold) for 6-8 mos before tasting so it can sour. If you are bottling, repitch another pack of fresh lacto and carbonate to 4 vol.

[siwelwerd]

Lacto is a weak bacteria and hates oxygen

Do you have a source for this statement? I have seen something to that effect on a couple different forums, but never seen a primary source for it. It would certainly seem to explain why a lot of people don't get their berliner weisse's sour enough with lacto.

[Lichtersnatch]

I've read that on homebrewing forums as well, but everything else I've read says that they're facultatively anaerobic IE. http://genome.jgi-psf.org/lacde/lacde.home.html

[siwelwerd]

I've read that on homebrewing forums as well, but everything else I've read says that they're facultatively anaerobic IE. http://genome.jgi-psf.org/lacde/lacde.home.html

For us non-biologists, "facultatively anaerobic" means they are capable of both aerobic respiration (i.e. using oxygen) and fermentation (in the absence of oxygen), right?

[siwelwerd]

Spent some time Googling this morning:

"Lacto can ferment both in the presence or absence of oxygen but
prefers reduced levels." -- Vinnie Cilurzo, 2007 NHC Talk

The growth rate of Lactobacillus and Pediococcus species is enhanced anaerobically. Although not requiring oxygen, lactic acid bacteria tolerate oxygen. Recent work (Marty-Teysset et. al., 2000) has shown aerobically grown L. delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus to reduce oxygen and to accumulate hydrogen peroxide, an oxidative stress which triggers early entry into stationary phase. This results in a concomitant reduction in biomass yield and, from the perspective of growth on agar plates, smaller colonies.

From "Brewing yeast and fermentation" by Boulton and Quain, p. 573

[MikeB]

Anyone interested in brewing a Berliner Weisse might want to check out this Washington Homebrewers Association (WAHA) Educational Speaker Progam talk by Jess Caudil of WYeast Laboratories. (see below) Pretty extensive research on optimizing which of their strains of saccharomyces (WYeast #1007) works well with their lacto strain (WYeast #5335), what order to pitch, plus a few other tricks on how best to ferment a Berliner Weisse.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13867448